Jester
New Member
REDSQUAD CO
Posts: 13
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Post by Jester on Apr 8, 2008 10:02:05 GMT -5
A couple of points of order... First off, I want to be clear that I consider myself a Tactical community member. Second, I would hope that Jazz et al, might even consider me a Tactical community leader, as he and I (albeit exclusive of one another) along with others have striven for years to keep the genre going. I was quite deliberate in never posting a link to "that other TR site"...the one that I spent a great deal of time and even some money on to create, only to have differences of opinion obliterate it's chances of survival. I sought to expand the TR community, and NEVER to fragment it. The truth is that seeing this effort begin does pain me, as I thought that we were united in making the TRC work. I never dreamed that differences of opinion among adults could keep that from happening, or I never would have invested myself in that effort to begin with. You all seem very committed to this effort, and that's just grand. It's interesting to note how each successive effort to create a Tactical Realism community (TCC, THS, TRC) spawns the same pitfalls and quandaries each time though, such as "what rules must be observed for groups to be members?". All that being said...Regardless of the time I've wasted and how I feel about that, I'm bigger than that (at least a little), and I'm just happy to see any form of Tactical Realism community. Some of you may be aware of my "essay", that details an evolutionary view of the genre. It was my effort to make the community at large more "inclusive" rather than exclusive, in the goal of growing the community. LINK TO ESSAY (Jazz, or any moderator, feel free to delete if you care to.)Just posting such a thing was never going to grow a community, I realize that. Cooperation and a sharing of resources was deemed the best way, which is why the TRC was founded to begin with. I was even prepared to host the downloads for those that wanted to make their special brands of TR community tools (whether mods, maps, rcon, or any other). This brings me to the crux of this post. I had an opportunity to play the LOoL clan's version of the "AWE4" mod, and quite frankly, it's well done. Scratch that - it's VERY well done in my opinion. I had to hip shoot once when, as I approached a corner, an enemy soldier surprised me by coming around first. When I quickly shot from the hip in reflex nothing happened to me. I'm guessing that the shell shock effect only registers if quick successive hip shots are made for some extended period. Running was well controlled too. You suffered no effects when running for any reasonable amount of time to escape harm, but if you were making a marathon of the map, your weapon was disabled and you were shell shocked. Fairly harmless really, unless of course you had just run yourself into a group of enemy troops, in which case, you deserve to die anyway. All in all, I thought it was an invaluable tool, and really wanted to load it up. "Baddad53" ended up visiting the TRC Forums, and let us all know about the mod, and this is where things started to sour for me. Although I've been clear that I consider the mod a valuable tool and appreciated the post, I certainly didn't appreciate the inclusion of TWO links, neither of which brought you to a place where you can get this mod. One link was to their clan site (...that's fine), the other was a link to this very board's index page. Not a link to a post that gives more details about this mod mind you, but simply a link to the No RnG Tactical forums!?!?! On many forums, that would just have been considered spam. I hope "Baddad53" understands why I edited his post slightly (and made it a sticky). I actually resisted deleting it altogether, because regardless of having to jump through hoops to get the mod, I left the post that markets it in the hopes that they might have a change of heart about it's distribution...but that's where my goodness will have to end I'm afraid. In trying to get the mod from their site, I discovered that I would have to submit to someone's approval to get it, and that didn't sit well with me. I'm not sure if the mod tweakers actually care to grow a tactical community that conforms more closely to their own style of play, but if they do, this is a rather backwards way of doing it. By doling out this tool only to those you consider worthy, you're perpetuating the ill-feelings that so many FPS players have historically held against all of us "TR" guys. To my mind, releasing this version of AWE4 everywhere you can would serve the purpose of spreading this playing style much more effectively. If you would just let anyone and everyone have it, you MIGHT even find groups that were never previously fans of this genre coming into the fold, and NOT because they were forced to register here, or submit to your clan's examination, but simply because they get to experience and truly understand the enjoyment that can come from tactical play. I fear that going about it this way can only breed contempt and animosity.
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Post by [509th] Jazz on Apr 8, 2008 14:05:47 GMT -5
HI Jester,
Of course I see you as a tactical community leader. I appreciate your efforts you make to have a group of tactically minded people and clans working together. I have no bad feelings towards you. I appreciate your point of view, whether or not it I or others agree or disagree because you aren't slamming anyone for their views or actions. You are merely stating your point of view. I thank you for that.
I did not feel that my style of tactical was accepted over at "the other forum", so I wanted to give this a try. Both you and I have seen different versions of tactical communities start up and fail, all we both can do is hope that we are both successful this time. I have no problems with the rest of the tactical community and how each clan rules are on their servers. Hopefully everyone understands that. As I said before we can agree to disagree, there is no need for bickering on how a clan chooses to run their server, and I dont see why people have to continually post about why they dont agree with it. I hope you don't feel there is a competition between us, I believe we both want the tactical community to grow. The group here just puts a limit on how much running is allowed. We still need to all get together and form some type of guidelines. This community is very new and will takes some time. Hopefully we can get things worked out together and grow.
The Progressive run mod and hip shooting mod are still new, only been out about a week. I can see your point of view on sharing, but I do not want to speak on behalf of Chi who has done the work. I know there was a TR mod that was on a tactical server that was not released, but was released publicly about a month ago. I would agree about posting the link for this forum, I don't think he meant anything by it, he was making posts in different forums about the mod and the community we are trying to build.
Jazz
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Post by [509th] killjoy on Apr 8, 2008 14:16:45 GMT -5
Well said Jazz.
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Jester
New Member
REDSQUAD CO
Posts: 13
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Post by Jester on Apr 8, 2008 14:20:09 GMT -5
Well, just so that it's understood, and regardless of what might be construed by my post...I'm NOT angry about ANY of this, that would be silly. I guess I'm mostly disappointed. That feeling stems from taking over for Zen from the THS, hosting the group, paying for the domain, and then having everything stagnate.
I just wish I hadn't gone through all the trouble of modding the forums, and everything else I did.
For the record, I realize that you are all here because you may have felt alienated at the TRC. I don't believe that you're trying to compete, but rather creating a place for a like-minded group, and I respect that.
I guess I just thought that we were all like-minded at the TRC, even DESPITE our differences. We are more the same than we are different.
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Post by [509th] Jazz on Apr 8, 2008 14:31:11 GMT -5
Well, just so that it's understood, and regardless of what might be construed by my post...I'm NOT angry about ANY of this, that would be silly. I guess I'm mostly disappointed. That feeling stems from taking over for Zen from the THS, hosting the group, paying for the domain, and then having everything stagnate. I just wish I hadn't gone through all the trouble of modding the forums, and everything else I did. For the record, I realize that you are all here because you may have felt alienated at the TRC. I don't believe that you're trying to compete, but rather creating a place for a like-minded group, and I respect that. I guess I just thought that we were all like-minded at the TRC, even DESPITE our differences. We are more the same than we are different. TRC isn't dead, it can work. Like Minded People, you nailed that one.... HEADSHOT LOL I agree, we are more the same than different.
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marko
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by marko on Apr 8, 2008 15:04:20 GMT -5
Hi Jester .Jazz I have knowen Jester for a long time. I was in RSQ. Jester I was Rocky.Just thought I would say hi. Jester come over to the 105th and play.
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Post by {MAD} highlonesome on Apr 8, 2008 18:38:54 GMT -5
Howdy Jesta
Welcome aboard!
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Post by -eXtr- chiblue on Apr 9, 2008 5:55:23 GMT -5
Jester, hi and welcome to our community... I feel bad that you feel so frustrated about the situation and although I cannot comment about most of this what I can comment is you obvious discontent with my approach to releasing the mod.
I see no reason to justify my actions but I will try and provide you with my thought proces sin doing this. As Jazz already said the mod is very new and is in no way a completely solution yet, I am continually working with those clans I have provided it to in an attempt to stabalize and enhance it. My decision to place some controls on the release is a standard software release approach and given that this is a "part time" thing for me releasing an untested peice of software to a wider community would be both folly and disasterous for it's future success and acceptance. Coupled with the fact that this mod was developed specifically around this forum is the reason I am currenlty only releasing to members of this forum. This provides me with 2 things, people who are commited to TR and want to work with me to build a specific TR solution. I certainly do not request donations to my site, like other modders, I do not keep this as a some form of competitive edge for our clan, again like other modders and I really see very little pain in my requirements for receiving the mod, basically what I ask for is...
1. A commitment to TR - Website and server info. 2. An assurance that both the developers of AWE and our mod are given the appropriate credits, htis for obvious reasons. 3. They are a member of this forum, being the motivation behind it. 4. I do also look at our server logs to ensure that someone requesting the mod has played it on our server, this is to ensure that they know what they are buying into..
As I said this is not in anyway an attempt in justifying this approach but a solid and common appraoch to early software release. We have to contain the release to a level that I can deal with until we have a stable solution.
So this all said, I will tell you that you are more than welcome as is anyone else to request enrolement into our early release program and I will consider any and all requests equally. As far as releasing to the general gaming community, I really do not know if this is or is not a good idea, but we certainly are not ready for this at the moment and I do often get very adverse reactions to the crouch mod from none NRNG gamers.
As far as the problem you experienced with our hip shot mod, thanks I will take a look at it, but this does emphasise why limited release is the smart approach.
Baddad53 is a outstanding Gamer, with many years of experience in many different games, he has integrity and honesty and would never do anything to hurt this community or our clan, he is a founding member. This said I see no justification in your criticism of his post he posted about the mod and provided links to both NRNG and LOoL clan, I think that navigating through a couple of screens is and should not perplex an gamer.
Again I appologize for the frustration you feel and I hope that I have in someway addressed these frustrations, and you feel that we can move forward in a sense of comradship in our mutual friend NRNG.
Thanks
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Post by copperhead on Apr 9, 2008 7:23:46 GMT -5
Ayoye TRC, NoRnG, ? I really dont understand all those post, everybody as the right to be part of any forum or site, the reaction look like if we took something out of some other place, I dont think it,s the case... Chipblue can give his work the way he wants and how he wants, just like Joker at eXtreme or any other modder or mapper when they give part of there map.. Fudge did all of you realize that we are talking about a passtime and a game..... We are getting together to play our favorite game and spend time with our friends..... and friendship is usualy built around common thought or action.. I'm sorry for these comments, but if some are frustrated or upset againts another individual, send each other private email or talk on teamspeak and solve your problem... My english is not enough good to read very very long letter like the one posted here... I hope it stop now, Did anyone post on TRC comments like this? Did anybody here post comments on this forum about TRC? This as to stop Copper-Head
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Jester
New Member
REDSQUAD CO
Posts: 13
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Post by Jester on Apr 9, 2008 7:50:48 GMT -5
As far as the problem you experienced with our hip shot mod, thanks I will take a look at it, but this does emphasise why limited release is the smart approach. Baddad53 is a outstanding Gamer, with many years of experience in many different games, he has integrity and honesty and would never do anything to hurt this community or our clan, he is a founding member. This said I see no justification in your criticism of his post he posted about the mod and provided links to both NRNG and LOoL clan, I think that navigating through a couple of screens is and should not perplex an gamer. I think there have been some misunderstandings here. I did NOT have any problem with the hip shot portion of the mod. As I've made clear, I think the mod is fantastic in it's current form, and though I'm not trying to score points by saying this, I thought it was pretty much a finished working product. For the record I'll state again that I believe it's VERY well done. I played it on my friend Serge Cloutier's server, so your server logs won't demonstrate my time experiencing the mod. As Baddad's post is concerned, please realize that I made it a "sticky" and never brought the man's honesty or integrity into question...that's being a little mellow dramatic. I don't expect that everyone will "see the justification in my criticism" of that post, but nobody really needs to either. You see, I'm the founder and a moderator at that site, and my actions as a moderator are governed by a set of universally accepted principles. The only problem I had with it was that there were two links in the post, and it was implied that more information about the mod could be found by clicking either one of them. As a moderator, I clicked them both, but only one related directly to the mod. As a moderator, I try to keep in mind the purpose of the site/boards I am charged with maintaining. That site was created specifically for the sharing of resources. The post in question described a resource, gave links for more information, but only your clan website has more information. When putting the words "LOoL AWE4 Mod" in the search at THIS site, only this very thread shows up! To my moderator mind, this was only a way to funnel traffic from that site to this one, generally considered a no-no. Most sites, including mine, allow for signatures that demonstrate a person's affiliations and personalities provided that they express nothing illegal, racial, sexually explicit, etc...but a post including links needs to bring you where it says it will, or it may be edited. I believe that is a fairly widely accepted rule of thumb. Regardless of that, there is no reason there can't be cooperation between the sites given that (as Jazz and I agree) we are more the same than different. As I demonstrate in "The Darwinism of a cultural phylum", this site is more specific to a particular line of TR players, yet still TR. We are brethren, and inviting that community to explore this one is certainly a welcome element to a post, just as long as it's not veiled in the promise of certain information. Je m'excuse si j'ai causer des ennuis pour quelques-uns d'entre vous. Ce n'etait jamais mon intention. Je voulait seulement preserver l'idee qu'un lien soit directement relier au sujet ou ca se trouve.
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Post by -eXtr- chiblue on Apr 9, 2008 8:24:15 GMT -5
I was not suggesting that you did bring Baddads character into question, I am simply stating my feelings about him, and i guess I did a crappy job of that, but he is the reason I am in Gaming and represents all that is good about this online gaming community...
I also take no exception to your comments about our distribution method for the mod, but as you questioned the process I just felt it important that all those participating and those not are aware of the reasons I am doing it this way...
Enough said I believe as copper head said, it's supposed to be fun, so lets get on with gaming and frag each others ass.... that is the what it is about nothing more, nothing less..
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Jester
New Member
REDSQUAD CO
Posts: 13
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Post by Jester on Apr 9, 2008 13:26:44 GMT -5
I was not suggesting that you did bring Baddads character into question, I am simply stating my feelings about him, and i guess I did a crappy job of that, but he is the reason I am in Gaming and represents all that is good about this online gaming community... I also take no exception to your comments about our distribution method for the mod, but as you questioned the process I just felt it important that all those participating and those not are aware of the reasons I am doing it this way... Enough said I believe as copper head said, it's supposed to be fun, so lets get on with gaming and frag each others ass.... that is the what it is about nothing more, nothing less.. Agreed...and I'm very glad that you took no exception to my ideas about your distribution. I guess what I was getting at, was that we need to put it into as many server admin's hands as possible so that they get to experience it. I am so serious in fact, that if your resources are limited for whatever reason, I would be happy and proud to be a host for the downloading of the mod at whatever time you decide to release it globally. Just this, then I'll " zip it"...LOL. My beloved REDSQUAD was a Tactical Clan founded by 3 men from Quebec, Canada. One of them is the MADMAN himself, my friend, Serge Cloutier (sidebar: BIG, you're paying too much for your server...LMAO). Since it was founded, our democratic system has seen REDSQUAD "fall from grace" a bit, and we are NOT NEARLY the TR clan we once were. My hope is that with the right style of modding, many of the moldy oldies, as well as some of the newbies over there might see the light, and come back to me. So far, your version of AWE4 is the closest I've seen and experienced to what I've looked for, and might even resurrect my dear group to a version closer to its former self. I've posted on your forums chiblue...respond as you see fit, sir.
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Post by [509th] *Starz* on Apr 10, 2008 17:14:33 GMT -5
I have a headache after reading all of those forum posts. The main concern I think is trying to be addressed here after everything said are main set rules that should be held by each and every No RuNnGun server that is a part of this community and the distribution of the new mods created by Lool. It seems as though there is quite a lot of confusion going on here, and it would be good to get it resolved soon so that in fact it will not hinder the progress of this amazing idea that [509th] Jazz has earlier addressed about bringing tactical gaming units together under a harmony of peace and understanding. As someone once told me, "God grant me the courage to accept the things that I cannot change, The strength to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to discern the difference." With that said, Have a good one.
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Post by -eXtr- chiblue on Apr 10, 2008 19:16:49 GMT -5
WOW, I'm impressed and I thought gamers where a mindless bunch of spotty nerds who spent all their time online or downloading pawn cus they can't get girls to sleep with them... OH no that was my wifes wisdom LOL, and just when you had lost faith, someone breaks wind, so to speak and enlightens us all.... LOL...
Sorry Star, just joking.... nice sentiment thank you for the positive words of reason...
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Post by [509th] *Starz* on Apr 10, 2008 21:52:45 GMT -5
Your Welcome ChiBlue
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